Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!decwrl!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!donohue From: donohue@netcom.com (Peter P. Donohue) Subject: FAQ - herp organizations/clubs Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 05:20:48 GMT Lines: 225 HERPETOLOGICAL SOCIETIES - last update 6/21/93 Originally compiled by the Northern Ohio Association of Herpetologists and published on the HerpNet Bulletin Board System. Please send any additions, deletions, or other changes to DONOHUE@NETCOM.COM. ------ Start of List ------- ACT Herpetological Association. GPO Box 1335, Canberra, ACT, 2601, Australia. Adelaide Snake Catchers Inc. PO Box 12 Norwood, SA, 5067, Australia. American Federation of Herpetoculturists, P.O. Box 1131, Lakeside, CA 92040 American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, Florida State Museum, University of Florida, Gainesville, FL 32611 Arizona Herpetological Association, 1433 W. Huntington Drive, Tempe, AZ 85282 Arkansas Herpetologiocal Association, c/o Perk Floyd, Route 2, Box 16, 16 Lakeside, Hensley, AK 72065 Association for the Conservation of Turtles and Tortoises, Mt. Salem Reservation, RD 4, Box 368, Sussex, NJ 07461 Association of Reptile Keepers of B.C., P.O. Box 484, New Westminster, B.C. Canada V3L 4Y8 Australian Herpetological Society Inc. PO Box R79, Royal Exchange, Sydney, NSW, 2000, Australia. Australian Society of Herpetologists Inc. The Secretary/Treasurer, ASH, CSIRO Division of Wildlife and Ecology, PO Box 84, Lyneham, ACT, 2602, Australia. Bay Area Amphibian & Reptile Society, Palo Alto Jr. Museum, Palo Alto, CA 94301 British Herpetological Society, c/o Zoological Society of London, Regent's Park, London, N.W. 1, England Canadian Amphibian and Reptile Conservation Society, 9 Mississauga Road N., Mississauga, Ontario L5H 2H5, Canada California Turtle & Tortoise Club, P.O. Box 8952, Fountain Valley, CA 92728 Carribbean Conservation Corp., PO Box 2866, Gainsville, FL 32606-2866 Central Florida Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 3277, Winter Haven, FL 33881 Central Illinois Herpetological Society, 1125 West Lake Avenue, Peoria, IL 61614 Central Kentucky Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 12227, Lexington, KY 40581-2227 Charlotte County Herpetological Society, 801 Solona Loop Rd., Punta Gorda, FL 33950 Chicago Herpetological Society, 2001 N. Clark Street, Chicago, IL 60614 Colorado Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 15381, Denver, CO 80215 Connecticut Herpetological Society, 860 Oakwood Rd., Orange, CT 06477 Delaware Herpetological Society, c/o Ashland Nature Ctr., Brackenville & Barley Mill Rd., Hockessin, DE 19707 Desert Tortoise Council, PO Box 1738, Palm Desert, CA 92261 Desert Tortoise Preserve Committee, P.O. Box 453, Ridgecrest, CA 93555 Dutch Snake Society, c/o Jaap Kooij, Langervelderweg 137, 2211 AG Noordwijkerhout, The Netherlands Endangered Turtle Protection, PO Box 4617, Greenville, DE 19807 East Texas Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 1561, Trinity, TX 75862 Eastern Seaboard Herp. League, c/o Charles Ball, 5050 Wynnefield Ave., #305, Philadelphia, PA 19131 Everglades Herpetological Society, PO Box 1817, Miami, FL 33265-0968 Florida Marine Conservatory, 274 Margaret Rd., Key West, FL 33040 Florida Panhandle Herpetological Society, c/o The Zoo, 5801 Gulf Breeze Pkwy, Gulf Breeze, FL 32561 Florida West Coast Herp. & Conserv. Soc., c/o John Lewis, 1312 S. Evergreen Ave., Clearwater, FL 33516 Gainesville Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 7104, Gainesville, FL 32605-7104 Georgia Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 76744, Atlanta,GA 30358 Gopher Tortoise Council, c/o Patricia Ashton, 611 NW 79th Drive, Gainesville, FL 32607 Great Lakes Herpetological Society, 13862 Church Road, Berville, MI 48002 Greater Cincinnati Herpetological Soc., c/o Cincinnati Mus. Nat. Hist., 1720 Gilbert Ave, Cincinnati, OH 45202 Gulf Coast Herpetological Society, PO Box 2562, Houston, TX 77001 Help Endangered American Ridley Turtles, PO Box 681231, Houston, TX 77268-1231 Herpetological Assoc. of Africa, Nasionale Museum, Postbus 266, Bioemfontein 9300, South Africa Herpetological Associates Inc., 1018 Berkeley Ave., Beachwood. NJ 08722 Herpetological Online Network (HerpNet BBS), PO Box 52261, Philadelphia, PA 19115 BBS #:215-464-3562 Hoosier Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 40544, Indianapolis, IN 46240-0544 Horned Lizard Conservation Society, P.O. Box 122, Austin, TX 78767 Idaho Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 6329, Boise, ID 83707 Inland Empire Herp. Soc., c/o San Bernardino City Mus., 2024 Orange Tree Ln, Redlands, CA 92373 International Gecko Society, P.O. Box 370423, San Diego, CA 92137-0423 International Herp. Symposium, Zoological Consortium, 13019 Catoctin Furncace Rd., Thurmont, MD 21788 International Society for Study of Dendrobatid Frogs, c/o Ed Tunstall, 2320 Palomino Dr., Chandler, AZ 85224 lowa Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 166, Norwalk, IA 50211 Iowa State Herpetology Club, c/o John Turnipseed, 528 V. Ave, Boone, IA 50036 (515) 432-7130 Island Empire Herpetological Society, San Bernadino County Museum, 2024 Orange Tree Lane, Redlands, CA 92373 Italian Herpetological Society, c/o Luciano Mariotto, Via Lencavallo 57/c, 10154 Torino, Italy IUCN/SSC Freshwater Chelonians, Dept. of Zoology, Eastern Ill. Univ., Charleston, IL 61920 Kansas Herpetological Society, c/o Olin Karch, 1112 Rural Street, Emporia, KS 66801 Kaw Valley Herpetological Society, Rte. 1, Box 29B, Eudora, KS 66025 Lehigh Valley Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 9171, Allentown, PA 18105-9171 Long Island Herpetological Society, 117 E. Santa Barbara Road, Lindenhurst, NY 11757 Louisiana Herpetological Society, 5025 Tulane Drive, Baton Rouge, LA 70808 Lubbock Turtle & Tortoise Society, c/o Joe Cain, 5708 Sixty-Fourth Street, Lubbock, TX 79424 Madras Crocodile Bank, Vadanemmeli Village, Perur P.O., Mahabalipuram Rd., Madras 603 104, South India Madras Snake Park Trust, Deer Sanctuary, Guindy, Madras 600 022, India Marine Turtle Newsletter, Biology Dept., Mercer Univ., Macon, GA 31207 Maryland Herp. Soc., Dept. of Herpetol., Nat. Hist. Soc. Maryland, 2643 N. Charles St., Baltimore, MD 21218 Michigan Society of Herpetologists, c/o Alma Tropical Fish Ctr., Inc., 228 E. Superior Street, Alma, MI 48801 Mid-Mississippi Valley Herpetological Society, 925 Park Place Dr., Evansville IN 47145 Minnesota Herpetological Society, Bell Mus. of Nat. History, 10 Church St. SE, Minneapolis, MN 55455-1014 National Turtle & Tortoise Society, P.O. Box 9806, Phoenix, AZ 85068-9806 Nebraska Herpetological Society, Biology Department, Univ. of Nebraska-Omaha, Omaha, NE 68182-0040 New England Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 1082, Boston, MA 02103 New Mexico Herpetological Society, Depart. of Biology, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque, NM 87131 New York Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 1245, Grand Central Station, New York, NY 10017 New York Turtle & Tortoise Society, 163 Amsterdam Avenue, Suite 365, New York, NY 10023 New Zealand Herpetological Society, 4 Cradock Street, Avondale, Auckland 7, New Zealand. North Carolina Herpetological Soc., N.C. State Mus. of Nat. Sciences, P.O. Box 27647, Raleigh, NC 27611 North Texas Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 470771, Fort Worth, TX 76147 Northeast Colorado Herpetological Society, 6247 W. 10th St., Greeley, CO 80631 Northern California Herpetological Society, Box 1363, Davis, CA 95617-1363 Northern Nevada Herpetological Society, 348-1/2 Wheeler Avenue, Reno, NV 89502 Northern Ohio Assoc. of Herpetologists, Dept. of Biology, Case Western Res. Univ., Cleveland, OH 44106 Oklahoma Herpetological Society, Route 1, Box 59, Goodwell, OK 73939 Ontario Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 130, Station "G," Toronto, Ontario M4M 3E8, Canada Oregon Herpetological Society, c/o Steven Aveldsen, 8435 Derbyshire Lane, Eugene, OR 97495 Pacific Northwest Herpetological Society, c/o P.O. Box 70231, Bellevue, WA 98007 Palm Beach County Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 125, Loxahatchee, FL 33470 Philadelphia Herpetological Society, c/o Mark Miller, 9573 Walley Avenue, Philadelphia, PA 19115-3009 Reptile Breeding Foundation, P.O. Box 1450, Picton, Ontario K0K 2T0, Canada Reptile Defense Fund, PO Box 16042, Baton Rouge, LA 70893 Reptile Keepers Association. PO Box 98, Gosford, NSW, 2250, Australia. Reptile Keepers Association of South Australia. PO Box 56 Ohalloran Hill, SA, 5158, Australia. Reptile Keepers Association of South East Queensland. PO Box 879, Toowong, Qld, 4066, Australia. Rocky Mountain Herpetological Society, c/o Dave Baker, 605 W. Colorado Avenue, Colorado Springs, CO 80905 Sacramento Turtle & Tortoise Club, c/o Felice Rood, 25 Starlit Circle, Sacramento, CA 95831 Sacramento Valley Herpetological Society, 6007 Watt Ave., North Highlands, CA 95660 St. Louis Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 25117, St. Louis, MO 63125 San Diego Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 4036, San Diego, CA 92164-4036 San Diego Society of Natural History, PO Box 1390, San Diego, CA 92112 San Diego Turtle & Tortoise Society, c/o 13963 Lyons VaUey Road, Jamul, CA 92035-9607 San Joaquin Herpetological Society, PO Box 1104, Clovis, CA 93613-1104 Save-A-Turtle, PO Box 361, Islanorada, FL 33036 Sea Turtle Center, PO Box 634, Nevada City, CA 95959 Sea Turtle Preservation Society, PO Box 510988, Melbourne Beach, FL 32951 Shasta Snake Society, P.O. Box 171, Douglas City, CA 96024 Society for Research on Amphibians and Reptiles in New Zealand (SRARNZ). SBS, Victoria University of Wellington, PO Box 600, Wellington, New Zealand. Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles, Department of Zoology, Miami University, Oxford, OH 45056 South Australian Herpetology Group Inc. c/- South Australian Museum, North Terrace, Adelaide, SA, 5000, Australia. South/Central Texas Herpetological Society, 1405 Rabb Road, Austin, Texas, 78704 Southern Arizona Herpetological Society, 4521 West Mars St., Tuscon, AZ 85704 Southern California Snake Association, P.O. Box 2932, Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670 South Mississippi Herpetological Association, PO Box 1685, Ocean Springs, MS 39564 Southern N.E. Herpetological Society, c/o Paul Kaplowitz, 36 Janna's Lane, Madison, CT 06443 South Marion Herpetological Society, PO Box 1817, Belleview, FL 32620 South Texas Turtle and Tortoise Society, 927 Wilson Dr., Alice, TX 78332 South Western Herp.Soc., c/o Frank B. Gibbons, Acanthus 59, St. Marychurch Rd., Torquay, Devon TO1 3HG, England Southwestern Herpetologists Society, P.O. Box 7469, Van Nuys, CA 91409 Susquehanna Herpetological Society, c/o Sam Burleigh, 211 South Market Street, Muncy, PA 17756 Tampa Bay Herpetological Society, 3310-A Carlton Arms Dr., Tampa, FL 33614 Tasmanian Herpetological Society. c/- Queen Victoria Museum and Art Gallery, Wellington Street, Launceston, Tas., 7250, Australia. Texas Herpetological Society 1810 W. Mulberry, San Antonio, Texas 78201 The Tort Group, 5157 Poncho Circle, Las Vegas, NV 89119 Toledo Herpetological Society, c/o Sandy Allen (President) 1587 Jermain Drive, Toledo, OH. 43606 Treasure Coast Herpetological Society, PO Box 650654, Verno Beach, FL 32965 Troup County Herpetological Society, 801 Grant St., La Grange, GA 30240 Tucson Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 31531, Tucson, AZ 85751-1531 Turtle Back Zoo, 560 Northfield Ave., West Orange, NJ 07052 Turtle Education Adoption Media, 3245 Military Ave., Los Angles, CA 90034 Turtle Organization of San Luis Obispo, PO Box 3208, Shell Beach, CA 93449 Turtle/Tort Club of Santa Barbara, PO Box 60745, Santa Barbara, CA 93160 Upstate Herpetological Society, Box 78, Rte. 1, Greenville, NY 12083 Utah Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 9361, Salt Lake City, UT 84109 Venomous Snake Society, P.O. Box 691454, Los Angeles, CA 90069 Victorian Herpetological Society. 16 Suspension Street, Ardeer, Vic., 3022, Australia. Virginia Herpetological Society, Route 2, Box 78, Brookneal, VA 24528 Washington DC Herpetological Society, c/o Frank Watrous, 121605 Old Dorm Place, Herndon, VA 22070 Wisconsin Herpetological Society, 9137 W. Mill Road, Milwaukee, WI 53225-1701 World Congress of Herpetology, Cornell Univ., Ithica, NY 14853 Wyoming Herpetological Society, P.O. Box 1907, Casper, WY 82602 -- Peter P. Donohue email: donohue@netcom.com disclaimer: I don't care if my employer agrees with what I say! I pay for this account myself. Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!tulane!ames!olivea!decwrl!decwrl!csus.edu!netcom.com!donohue From: donohue@netcom.com (Peter P. Donohue) Subject: FAQ - herp breeders/wholesalers/suppliers Message-ID: Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1993 05:21:59 GMT Lines: 270 BREEDER/WHOLESALER/SUPPLIER list - last update 7/21/93 Following is the list in alphabetical order of herp wholesalers/ breeders/suppliers and some basic information on ordering and shipping live animals. The userid or name of the person who made the comments is included. Appended to the end of this file is a list of breeders that was posted to HerpNet. Unfortunately, the author of the list wasn't listed and the breeder's/supplier's phone numbers were left out. If you have experience with a company (whether listed or not) and would like to share your experience, please send me email. If possible, include the address and number of the company. Remember, this is an international network, so companies that only serve a local community would not be appropriate. If you have any connection to the place beyond being a customer, please state it. I am also interested in hearing about other's experiences with shipping (rough estimate of prices) and what else should be mentioned under the shipping section at the end of this file. Pete (donohue@netcom.com) Breeders/Wholesalers: --------------------- Bob Clark 12316 Val Verde Dr., Oklahoma City, OK 73142 (405)749-0797 fax (405)749-0798 -specialize in pythons. He was the first to breed albino burmese (python m. bivittatus) and albino ball pythons (python regius). (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) --- Crutchfield's Reptile Enterprises P.O. Box 1145, Bushnell FL 33513 (904)568-1830 fax (904)568-1832 -MANY types of venomous snakes, unusual reptiles not often seen on other lists (like Angolan python, 9 species of crocodiles!) Also a large selection of non-venomous snakes, geckos, turtles, and tortoises.) List is comprised of 6 legal size pages of reptiles, amphibians, books, and supplies. (Mark Miller from Herpnet) -My uncle bought Ball Pythons (P. regius) from them, and they were clean; his son bought one which had a few ticks. They're all quite healthy, unlike the Ball I got from a pet store... (RJOHNSON@SHELL.COM) -I enjoy his list as much as anyone, but it is largely a work of fiction. A friend and/or I have been present no less than 5 times over the last 8 years when the list got back from the printer. In EVERY case 99.9% of the rare items were "already gone" 100% of the time. Also be careful having him ship something. I will only buy from him if I can visit or a close friend is visiting. (cosper@seq.uncwil.edu) --- Eugene Bessette/Ophiological Services- Nice guy in Archer, Fla. (Just outside Gainesville). -He and Wayne Hill used to hang out together a bit. He produces excellent animals, mostly boids, some colubrids. I have a card SOMEWHERE with his address and number...(cosper@seq.uncwil.edu) --- Glades Herp, Inc. PO Box 3207, N. Ft. Meyers, FL 33918 (813)543-6100 fax (813)543-7480 -Carry a large selection of animals, mostly captive bred. High quality Animals. Prices are a little higher than average. (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) -I have had many thousands of dollars worth of transactions with them over the last 5 years. Nothing can be said except everything is top notch. You will pay a bit more, but the old saying "You get what you pay for" has never been more suitable. Bill Love is one of the VERY few people I will purchase from sight-unseen. (cosper@seq.uncwil.edu) --- Gulf Coast Reptiles 12710-2 McGregor Blvd., Ft. Meyers, FL 33919 (813)433-5525 fax (813)433-3156 -Decent selection, good prices. Many animals are wild caught, not captive bred. Because of the high numbers of imported animals, animals sometimes carry parasites (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) ---- Mark S. Bell, P.O. Box 26039, Fraser, Michigan 48026. (313) 792-0319 -Hatchlings guaranteed healthy, feeding, and properly sexed. If not satisfied, animals replaced or money refunded up to 48 hours from time of arrival. ---- Scott J. Michaels, DVM, P.O. Box 657, Island Lake, IL 60042-0657. (815) 363-0290. Sex determination guaranteed, 30 day health guarantee. ---- New England Reptile Distributors, Inc. 26 Chandler Avenue #14, Plaistow, NH 03865 phone/fax (603)382-6361 OWNER - Kevin -Though specializing in boas and pythons, exotics of all types are available. Every visit to New England Reptile is an education. Kevin's knowledge and caring of these animals is evident in the cleanliness of the establishment, the handling and feeding, and the quality of each individual animal's environment. Whether exotic snakes (rainbow boas and emerald tree boas are my favorites!) or lizards, chameleons, tortoise, geckoes, etc. the high quality of and the health of the animals is evident. I HIGHLY recommend New England Reptiles. ---- Brian Robenhorst Reptile Emporium 7126 Calumet Ave., Hammond, IN business (219) 933-6618 home (219) 933-6611 Colubrid and boid snakes. --- Pete and Phyllis Weis Tallhasee, FL (407)574-1037 -I have no connection to them other than being a very satisfied and and impressed customer. I have personal experience with their captive bread Bearded Dragons and Leapord Geckos and know they have other animals as well, such as basilisks and blue tongue skinks. (BILLED%WRQ@mcimail.com) Food Items: ----------- Lam Distributing PO Box 407, Rusk, TX 75785 (903)683-5212 Good prices on all size mice. (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) --- RANPRO PO Box 421115, Del Rio, TX 78842-1115 (512)774-4353 Good prices on all size mice. (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) Supplies: (note - many breeders carry full lines of supplies) --------- Bush Herpetological Supply 4869 S. Bradley Rd., Ste 18B-180, Santa Marina, CA 93455 (800)676-4809 or (805)937-2909 Carry a complete line of herp equipment, supplies, medicines, books, etc. They seem very helpful and the 800 number is a big plus (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) --- The Critter Connection 528 V. Ave. Boone, Ia 50036 (515) 432-7130 "I currently am a distributor for VitaLites and a source of Herp Books as well. I will also find animals for people, for a small commission." --- Mark Silver Productions PO Box 15731, Seattle, WA 98115-0731 (206)527-0135 Sell videotapes of International Herpetological Symposium. Cover a variety of subjects (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) --- Reptech, 4819 Pommel Place, West Des Moines, Iowa 50265, (515) 225-8876. Hog heating pads, fiberglass cages up to 8 feet long, other equipment. Call or write for price list. This outfit belongs to a couple of long term friends of mine. Good guys. (pholland@iastate.edu) --- Valentine Equipment Company 7510 S. Madison St., Willowbrook, IL 60522 (312)323-7070 fax (708)323-7076 Carry a complete line of equipment, supplies, medicines, books, etc. (V105MAHS@UBVMS.BITNET) ------A list of breeders from HerpNet------ The following is a list of a few snake breeders. These guys are all individuals that the zoo (or me personally) has done business with. I can personally vouch for them. They usually get their lists done around mid-March, so hold off until then before contacting them. Typically, the procedure is to write a brief note requesting a list and INCLUDE A SASE. (author unknown - from HerpNet BBS) Bill Gillingham, 555 Vista Rio Court, Woodbridge, CA, 95258 Breeder of Lampropeltis (Kings and milk snakes) --- Joe E. Pierce, HCO2-BX25012-9614, Alturas, CA, 96101 Breeder of Boa constrictor ssp. and Pythons --- Rich Zuchowski, 3680 Double Rock Lane, Baltimore, MD, 21234 Breeds designer Corn Snakes, Indigos, Kings --- Michael Walz, 1525 Shipman Street, Bethlehem, PA, 18018 Breeds mostly colubrids, some boids --- Larry Keller P.O. Box 267, Sidney, IL, 61877 Breeder of colubrids --- Ed Lukacevic, 7838 Riverview Road, Catlettsburg, KY, 41129 Breeds boids and fancy colubrids --- Robert Applegate, 1762 Pepper Villa, El Cajon, CA, 92021 Breeds mostly Lampropeltis --- Scott Michaels, 403 E. California Ave., Urbana, IL, 61081 Boids and colubrids --- Steve Fluty, 6920 W. 72 Terrace, Overland Park, KS, 66204 Breeds mexicana, alterna, pyros, triangulum --- Tom Taylor, 1433 West Huntington Dr., Tempe, AZ, 85282 Breeds stuff you don't see every day (Charina, etc.) --- John Meltzer, Box 3695, Minneapolis, MN, 55403 Breeder and broker of captive bred snakes --- Brian Sharp, P.O. Box 123, Catharpin, VA, 22018 Breeds EXPENSIVE rare boids --- Steve Hammack, 3114 Westcliff Road West, Fort Worth, TX, 76109 One of the largest private collections in the US --- Vince Scheidt, 6218 Syracuse Lane, San Diego, CA, 92122 Huge selection. This guy has a gigantic collection! --- Gary Sipperley, P.O. Box 19972, San Diego, CA, 92119 Another mega-breeder (note - the Co name is San Diego Reptile Breeders 619-460-8174) --- Terry Vanderventer, 1016 Andover Street, Clinton, MS, 39056 Breeds mostly colubrids --- Steve Hammond, 12319 Steedland Drive, Louisville, KY, 40229 Breeder of exceptional boids!!! --- Lloyd and Sunnie Lemke, 25947 Road 140, Visalia, CA 93277 good selection of boids and colubrids, carries some other herps Info on Ordering/Shipping Live Animals: --------------------------------------- Herp keepers can save quite a bit of money by purchasing animals directly from breeders. Unfortunately, few of us are lucky enough to have breeders within an easy drive of our collections. This means that we must find a way to ship any animals that we purchase. Most animals can not be shipped by standard carriers (UPS, Fed Ex, US Mail, etc.), but must be shipped Air Freight (though there are exceptions - I've seen some feeder animals such as anoles and crickets shipped by mail). Air Freight is basically the process of shipping a package via an airline from airport to airport. When you order herps, you need only be concerned with receiving the animals. Most breeders/ wholesalers ship 'Air Freight Collect.' This means that you pay for the shipping when you pick the animals up at the airport. This has the disadvantage of being a separate charge from the price of the animals, but also has the advantage of keeping you from being overcharged on shipping (some non-herp companies make a profit off of shipping costs). Shipping costs will vary by the size and weight of the box, origin, destination, and the carrier that it is being shipped on. That being said, I have found that shipping costs from Florida to New York ranged from $35 to $40 per box. There seems to be some leeway on the weight of the box - the same shipping cost would cover one small snake or a couple dozen medium ones (I've heard that you pay one price for under 100 lbs.). Most wholesalers/breeders provide guarantees on the quality of animals. By purchasing from a reputable dealer, you should be assured of the quality. Make sure you read the fine print - some guarantees can become void if the package is shipped at low temperatures or if it is not picked up within a certain amount of time from the arrival at the airport. The basic procedure for ordering and shipping animals runs something like this: 1) place order for animals - the firm is going to need to know what airport to ship the package to. After the order is placed and paid for, they should give you an air way bill number, commonly called an "away bill" and the approximate time the package will get there. The away bill number is used by the airline to track where the package is. 2) on the day the animals are supposed to be shipped, call the air freight section of the appropriate airline and inquire about when the package will arrive. Have your away bill number ready, though I've found that the shippers know when planes come in so they usually just ask where the package is originating from and tellvyou based on that info. 3) at the appropriate time, pay for the shipping and pick up the package. Similar to anything else that is shipped, inspect it. If their are signs of damage on the outside, complain to the shipper (and, possibly, do not accept the package). If the animals are damaged at all, contact the wholesaler/breed -- Peter P. Donohue email: donohue@netcom.com disclaimer: I don't care if my employer agrees with what I say! I pay for this account myself. Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!sgi!igor!donb From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) Subject: Finding lost herps Message-ID: <1993Aug3.205958.23657@igor.tamri.com> Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 20:59:58 GMT Lines: 73 ~From: "Peter Bell" Look behind the fridge, in the nice warm coils. Look soon, cuz the coils can burn an animal that is hiding in them. A remarkable number of snakes will do this. Also, water heaters, etc. Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------- ~From: seedman@iastate.edu (John D Turnipseed) My recommendation --- First, get a good flashlight. Second, think like a snake. In my experience, snakes that find themselves out of a small cage, find themselves in a larger cage (the room) and begin to look for a way out of it. They do this by finding a wall and following it. So, start at the cage, find the nearest wall, and use the flashlight to work your way around the room. Be Careful! Look underthings before moving them. The life you save might be your snakes. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ~From: Birny Baker bxb@calmasd.prime.com About finding lost snakes, I used to go into the snake room, close the door, hold my breath and listen. Listen in all the sections you can get close enough to. This only will work of course if a) you have great hearing like I do, and b) the snake happens to be crawling at the moment. Otherwise I agree wholeheartedly with the cautious movement of objects and the use of a good flashlight. It's kinda funny to think about hearing a snake crawling across the carpet, but it worked a couple times for me.-- -------------------------------------------------------------------- ~From: hall@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov Avoid having escaped amphibians in the first place. Keep them in an extremely secure enclosure, as when they escape their lives are in immediate danger due to dehyrdation. Often times, a suspected escapee can be found hidden in the terrarium, burrowed beneath the soil or otherwise concealed. But if one does escape, look in moist, cool, dark, enclosed places. This usually means house plants, particularly in the leaves, in the soil, in the drainage tray, and between inner/outer pots. Also check the bathroom and kitchen and any place else where water is found, including in or around their terrarium. If you fail to find the escaped amphibian on the first pass, place dishes of water all over the place, in corners, around the terrarium, etc. You may find your escapee here or at least keep it alive until you can find it. Remember that most amphibians are nocturnal, so to find an escaped amphibian out in the open or on the move you'll probably have to look at night, with a flashlight. As a side benefit of this approach, frogs become dazed by flashlights shined in their eyes, making it easy to capture them. -------------------------------------------------------------------- ~From: CBTCC@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU I figured that this could go into the escaped herp tip sheet--- Get several pounds of sand or salt. Spread it around the baseboards of rooms near where the herp snake escaped. You might find slither trails in the sand/salt the next morning. Alternatively, and especially if you have carpeting, buy a bunch of small, plastic figurines (or dominoes, or something) and set these up along the baseboards. If you find a bunch of them knocked over in the morning, you'll know something was passing in the night. In either case, you can try tracking the critter, or sitting up the next night (now that you know where his routes are). Good luck, Chris Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!sgi!igor!donb From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) Subject: Herp FAQ file Message-ID: <1993Aug3.205928.23254@igor.tamri.com> Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 20:59:28 GMT Lines: 121 ------------------------------------------------- | rec.pets.herp Frequently Asked Questions file | | last updates: 6/8/93 | ------------------------------------------------- 1. How to add info to this FAQ file Send via e-mail to donb@tamri.com (except where ownership noted otherwise) This FAQ file will be reposted once/month. Updates and changes will be accepted at any time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. What is r.p.h for? This newsgroup is a forum for the discussion of vivarium-living animals as pets. The discussion will be limited to Reptiles, Amphibians and miscellaneous exotic animals, such as tarantulas. Mammals, Birds and Fish will not be discussed in this group. The existing group rec.pets is useful but is often inundated with postings concerned with the more usual types of pets. The new group will be a dedicated forum, where only the specified types of animal will be discussed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Other related newsgroups Aquarium-based pets (primarily fish) ------------------------------------ rec.aquaria alt.aquaria sci.aquaria All pets -------- rec.pets Graphic images (various formats) -------------------------------- alt.binaries.pictures alt.binaries.pictures.misc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. definitions Boids - a general term for boas and pythons Brumation - the correct term for when a herp hibernates (because they don't actually hibernate). Colubrid - the largest family of snakes, several of which are toxic. Includes ring neck snakes, tree snakes, king snakes, rat snakes, garter snakes, earth snakes, whip snakes, racers, wolf snakes, mole vipers (including african mole vipers), rear fanged water snakes (from the Indopacific region), boomslangs, and snail eating snakes, among others. Gravid - a female reptile that is carrying eggs (all snakes reproduce via eggs, which they either lay or hatch internally). Slough - when a reptile sheds its skin (ecdysis). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. Info about other periodic postings and who posts them Care sheets (general snake, iguana, water turtle), Finding escaped herps donb@tamri.com Breeders' list, Comments about breeders, Herpetological societies donohue@netcom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. Good beginner snakes / lizards / herps Easy ---- Lizards: House geckos (various species) Leopard gecko () Southern Alligator lizard (Gerrhonotus multicarinatus) Fence lizard (Sceloporus species) Green Anoles (Anolis carolinensis) Snakes: Colubrids: Corn snakes (Elaphe gutatta gutatta) King snakes (Lampropeltis family) - must be kept solo, as they will eat other snakes. Boids: Captive bred juvenile Ball Pythons (Python regius) - wild caught Balls will often present feeding problems. More "challenging" ------------------ Lizards: Day Geckos (specialized diet, need extra food supplements) Most Skinks (too delicate and skittish) Horned Toads (too specific of a diet - ants mainly) Iguanas (various species) - nutrition is delicate, can be unfriendly and they grow quite large. Snakes: Colubrids: gopher/bull snakes (Pituophis family) - some people feel they are bad-tempered; others disagree. Boids: Boa constrictor group (e.g., Boa constrictor imperator) - grow fairly large for a first snake. N.B. Most of the animals (all the snakes) listed above are strict carnivores. Be sure that you are willing to feed your snake its proper prey animal before you choose one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. What to look for when buying a herp It is recommended that Captive Bred animals be kept, both to conserve wild populations and because they adjust to captivity better. Wild caught animals will be less expenisive, which makes buying them tempting; however, many herp enthusiasts refuse to buy such animals, for reasons of conservation and due to the fact that MOST wild caught animals die before ever reaching their destination. The animal should appear healthy and well-fed, with no protruding ribs or spine and no sores or visible parasites (e.g., ticks). lizards that store fat in their tail should have a tail with a plump base. Snakes should shed in one piece; if pieces of old skin remain on the snake, it may indicate a problem. The animal should appear alert and active; it should be strong, e.g., having a strong grip when handled. Try to look in the snakes mouth; watch out for reddish or cheesy areas, as they indicate disease. Take an experienced herper along if possible, when selecting your pet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. For the record, we STRONGLY discourage reptile enthusiasts from keeping venomous snakes. Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ames!sgi!igor!donb From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) Subject: Iguana care sheet Message-ID: <1993Aug3.205941.23452@igor.tamri.com> Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 20:59:41 GMT Lines: 149 Green Iguanas: Their care and Captive Husbandry By Norman Frank, DVM From Reptile and Amphibian Magazine (Jan/Feb 1992) Feeds, Feeding, and Environment Among reptiles and amphibians, a carnivorous diet is the rule. Virtually all frogs and toads, as well as salamanders, snakes, and crocodilians eat other animals to meet their own energy requirements. Among turtles and lizards the trend continues, but some species also add vegetable matter as a food source; and a very few forsake all meat and exist exclusively as vegetarians. The green iguana is a member to the latter group, and from a management point of view, this imposes very strict conditions upon their owners. There is no mixture of fruits and vegetables which, in and of itself, will provide a completely balanced diet to a herbivorous animal. The reason for this is because there is no vegetable source of vitamin D3, the biologically active form of vitamin D. Vitamin D3 is a fatty substance needed for calcium digestion; and without calcium to facilitate muscle function and bone formation, any animal will die. In the wild state, green iguanas produce their own D3 when they bask in the sun. Ultraviolet radiation, striking the skin, activates a cholesterol-like substance, converting it to the active D. This then enters the bloodstream and is either transported to the liver and fatty organs for storage, or used immediately to initiate the absorption of dietary calcium. The herpetologist who feeds a completely vegetarian diet to an iguana, therefore, must insure against vitamin D deficiency by exposing the reptile to sunlight. Such exposure should be direct, not filtered through window or cage glass. In actual fact, many zoos and private hobbyists move their iguanas into outdoor pens during warm weather so that they are able to bask. These periods need not be extensive to yield results; a few hours a day for three to four months will provide an iguana with the opportunity to form, and store within its fatty tissues, a good dose of D3. A convenient way for moving adults is to house them in wire cages which have wheels attached to them. In this way, the entire cage can be rolled around, from inside to outside, as temperature and weather conditions dictate. A second way to provide the ultraviolet radiation of sunlight is by the use of full spectrum indoor lights such as Vita-Lite tubes. These fit into standard fixtures and provide the entire range of wave lengths found in sunlight. Like natural light, these rays must not be filtered through glass. Indoor lighting is generally not as "strong" as natural sunlight, and should be utilized during the entire year. A third method of providing vitamin D3 to an iguana is by supplementing the diet with a commercial additive. Pharmaceutical companies produce D3 by exposing animal fat to ultraviolet radiation. This sets up a similar biochemical reaction that natural exposure sets up in a living lizard, and the resultant D3 is then prepared in powder or tablet form, ready to fortify the herbivorous diet and make it complete with respect to D content. Once the iguana owner provides a source of D3, the animal can absorb calcium from its diet and the challenge then becomes providing fruits and vegetables that are rich in this mineral. Table II lists common feed used and the calcium content in a cup of each. In order to qualify as a "good source of calcium" an item must meet two conditions: 1) it must actually contain a high level of calcium compared to other feeds, and 2) the calcium level must be equal to, or higher than, the phosphorus level; in other words, the calcium to phosphorus ratio must be at least one-to-one or one- to-less than one. Under natural conditions it is not possible to supply too much calcium in the diet; any excess is passed through the intestines and eliminated in the feces. It is interesting to note, however, that dieticians working under experimental guidelines can induce excess calcium retention with massive doses of ultraviolet exposure or by the administration of toxic levels of irradiated fats into the diet. This illustrates the close relationship between vitamin D3 and calcium. To this point, the discussion has involved a vegetarian ration only. This is the natural diet of iguanas which are physiologically equipped to handle the high fiber/low fat content of a no-meat diet. They have a modified intestinal tract containing a large colony of symbiotic bacteria. It is the function of these microorganisms to break down the high cellulose diet into secondary products which the lizard then absorbs. The process is called hind- gut fermentation and it supplies approximately half the energy needs of the iguana - an impressive figure. Yet there are many captive specimens, especially juveniles, which eagerly eat meat in the form of pinkie rodents, worms and grubs, crickets, and canned dog or cat food. Expert opinion is divided on whether it is advisable to feed these items, but common sense suggests that, since their taste for meat is natural, a small portion of the total diet (5-15%) can be animal-based and fed to those individual lizards who desire it. Table II compares the Ca:Phos data of several meats. Notice that only pinkie rodents and worms meet the 1:1 calcium to phosphorus criteria. It is a misconception that insects have a calcium shell and are therefore good sources of the mineral. The exoskeleton is actually chitin, a complex sugar, and insects should be dusted with calcium powder or raised on a calcium-rich substrate prior to feeding. Table II lists a normal cricket, and compares it to one raised on a feed fortified with calcium-rich limestone. The experimentally raised insect meets the ratio standard. A word of caution is advised for people who use commercial dog and cat foods; many are already fortified with vitamin D3 (labeled as D-activated animal sterol) and if given in excess may induce calcium overdose, in the same manner as seen in laboratory experiments. Table II: Calcium and Phosphorus Content of Common Iguana Feeds 1 Cup Portion Calcium Phosphorus Ca:Ph Ratio Good Collards 218 mg 29 mg 1:0.1 Calcium Rhubarb 105 mg 17 mg 1:0.1 Sources Turnip greens 105 mg 23 mg 1:0.2 * Chinese Cabbage 74 mg 26 mg 1:0.3 * Dandelion greens 103 mg 36 mg 1:0.3 Mix As Parsley 122 mg 38 mg 1:0.3 Basic Kale 90 mg 38 mg 1:0.4 Feed Cabbage 32 mg 16 mg 1:0.5 Ration Leeks 73 mg 43 mg 1:0.5 * Green Onions 60 mg 32 mg 1:0.5 * Spinach 51 mg 28 mg 1:0.5 * Blackberries 46 mg 30 mg 1:0.6 * Yellow Wax Beans 63 mg 46 mg 1:0.7 * Okra 82 mg 64 mg 1:0.7 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Marginal Celery 44 mg 32 mg 1:0.7 Calcium Eggplant 30 mg 26 mg 1:0.8 Sources Squash 36 mg 26 mg 1:0.8 * Radish 9 mg 8 mg 1:0.8 Use Green Beans 41 mg 42 mg 1:1 Sparingly Pears 19 mg 18 mg 1:0.9 For Apples 10 mg 10 mg 1:1 Variety Sweet Potato 29 mg 37 mg 1:1.2 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Poor Cucumber 14 mg 18 mg 1:1.2 Calcium Strawberries 21 mg 28 mg 1:1.3 Sources Broccoli 42 mg 58 mg 1:1.3 * Lettuce 20 mg 26 mg 1:1.3 * Parsnips 70 mg 96 mg 1:1.3 Use Apricots 15 mg 21 mg 1:1.4 Rarely Brussel Sprouts 36 mg 60 mg 1:1.6 * Cauliflower 28 mg 46 mg 1:1.6 * Peaches 5 mg 11 mg 1:2.2 * Asparagus 28 mg 70 mg 1:2.5 * Beets 22 mg 66 mg 1:3 * Bananas 7 mg 22 mg 1:3.1 * Plums 2 mg 7 mg 1:3.5 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Meat Pinkie Mice 1.6 % 1.8 % 1:1.1 * Earthworms .95 % .95 % 1:1 5-15% Crickets .16 % .87 % 1:5.4 of Crickets (lab) .77 % .88 % 1:1.1 Diet Mealworms .038 % .57 % 1:15 * Canned Pet Food .3 % .2 % 1:0.6 Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!sgi!igor!donb From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) Subject: Snake care sheet Message-ID: <1993Aug3.205935.23354@igor.tamri.com> Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 20:59:35 GMT Lines: 148 CARE SHEET FOR SNAKES By Paul Hollander pholland@iastate.edu (Freely Distributable) Each snake has various needs that must be met in order to keep it in good health in captivity. The following is an outline of factors that are important to the well-being of your pet. TEMPERATURE: A reptile has the same temperature as its surroundings; it simply moves to a warmer area to heat up and a colder spot to cool down. Most have an "optimum" body temperature that can be maintained within a few degrees and that generally lies between 80 and 88 degrees F. Most tropical species prefer the top half of that range, and most temperate zone snakes like the bottom half. A temperature gradient in the cage lets the snake decide how warm it wants to be. A thermometer can be the herper's best friend because a snake won't eat if it's more than a few degrees below optimum temperature. Snakes have a day-night temperature cycle in the wild. Some studies indicate that if a reptile is constantly held at optimum temperature for weeks, it suffers heat stress. Males also have the sperm killed. It is probably best for a snake to spend the night at a temperature 5 to 20 degrees F below its daytime activity temperature. HOUSING: Cages should be of adequate size, easy to keep clean, adequately ventilated, and escape proof. Aquariums with pegboard tops make good cages. Plastic shoe boxes and storage boxes also make good cages after enough air holes have been cut in them. Fiberglass cages up to four feet long are available commercially from Neodesha Plastics, Neodesha, KS. Big cages can be made of wood and pegboard, but not wire mesh or screen because a snake can rub its nose raw on wire. Most snakes do not need much space. Suggested minimum cage sizes are 1/2 square foot of floor space per foot of snake for those up to six feet in length and 3/4 square foot of floor space for those six to nine feet long. Increase the suggested minimum cage sizes 25% for each additional snake. Cages must be kept clean because snakes can develop Dirty Cage Syndrome when droppings build up. Cages should be cleaned every week or two with a detergent and a disinfectant like 5% sodium hypochlorite bleach [Chlorox (tm) for example] diluted as given on the label for woodwork. Coal tar and phenol products, like Ly-sol (tm) and Pine-sol (tm), are toxic. Do not use them. Some kind of floor covering makes cleaning easier. Paper (including newspaper), outdoor carpet, and pea gravel are good. Shredded aspen, a fibrous wood product, is also good for medium and large snakes. Sand, soil, sawdust, and kitty litter are not good. Sand and soil don't dry well, and a wet cage encourages skin diseases. Dust from sawdust or kitty litter can give a snake incurable pneumonia. Cedar chips may be toxic. Most snakes do very well in a simple cage. All require a water bowl and some sort of hiding place. Hatchlings will coil up in the crevices in a loosely wadded piece of newspaper. A closed cardboard cereal box with a hole in a corner works for larger snakes. If the box is too big for the snake, fill it with loosely wadded newspaper. Tree snakes need a branch. Rocks, plants, and other furnishings are strictly optional. It is best to keep one snake in each cage, particularly if it's a snake eater like a kingsnake. But if snakes must be caged together, snakes of the same species are more likely to get along than snakes of different species. FEEDING: All snakes are carnivorous. They never eat lettuce, carrots, bread, and similar items. The diet varies from species to species; check a reference book for each one. Individuals also show preferences. Whenever possible, the snake's natural food should be offered. Most adult snakes should be fed every week or ten days, and younger, growing snakes should eat more often. A snake can go for weeks without food if necessary, but it does better on a medium sized meal once a week than a huge meal every three weeks. Hungry mice have eaten captive snakes, so a live rat or mouse shouldn't stay in the cage more than an hour if uneaten. However, snakes don't require live prey. Many snakes don't care whether the food is alive or dead, and some will only accept dead food. Frozen food can be used after it is thoroughly thawed. If your snake won't eat, it may be too cool (see TEMPERATURE). Or it may want its food inside a hiding box for seclusion. It may want something different, like my Burmese python that loved pigeons and hated rats or my corn snake that loved pinky rats but wouldn't take a mouse. If a live adult mouse frightens your snake, try a freshly killed one or a live pinky. Cutting open the belly of a dead mouse produces a blood smell and a wet area that help to stimulate feeding. If nothing works, try to find an experienced herper for help. Force feeding is traumatic and only a last resort. SKIN SHEDDING: Every one to three months a snake sheds its skin. The eye is cloudy for a few days, then clears, and the skin is shed a few days later. Shedding takes only a few minutes, once the old skin is rubbed loose at the lips. Most snakes refuse food during this period. Sometimes not all of the skin is shed. This seldom happens if the humidity is kept at the proper level of 40 to 70 percent. Daily spraying with water after the eyes clear helps to prevent problems. If some of the skin remains unshed, the snake should be soaked in a container half full of water at 70 to 85 degrees F for an hour or so. Then the old skin can be gently peeled off. PARASITES AND DISEASE: Snakes can suffer from many ailments - mites and ticks on the skin, worms in the gut, and protozoa, bacteria, or viruses attacking the mouth, skin, and internal organs. Even cancer has been found. New specimens should be quarantined for at least two weeks so that they can be checked for parasites and disease. If the owner is not equipped to treat any diseases that occur, the snake should be taken to a veterinarian who is experienced in treating reptiles. Ticks are arthropods an eighth of an inch long or more that suck blood and carry disease. They can be gently pulled off with forceps and dropped in a vial of alcohol. Try to avoid leaving the head in the snake's skin. Mites are pinhead-sized, blood sucking arthropods closely related to ticks. The common snake mite almost always arrives on a snake from a pet store or other infested location. They are seldom found on freshly caught snakes. Putting a two inch square piece of a Shell No-Pest Strip or equivalent (active ingredient = 2,2-dichlorovinyl dimethyl phosphate) in the snake cage over night kills the mites. Put the Strip in a cardboard or plastic container with holes in it. The insecticide can come out, but the snake can't touch the Strip. Don't give water at this time. Afterwards, clean the cage well. This treatment should be enough if the mite-carrying snake has just arrived. If the mites aren't detected immediately, they spread. The treatment may have to be repeated once a week for a month to catch them all. Worm parasites are often present in the gut where most do little harm. They are detected by fecal examinations and killed with commercial wormers. SEXING AND BREEDING: A snake's sex can be determined in several ways. 1) Probing. This is the most reliable, but it should only be done by an experienced person. In this method, a metal probe is slipped through the vent to check for the presence of a hemipenis, the male copulatory organ. Every male has two hemipenes in the base of the tail. 2) A simple visual examination of the tail's length and thickness. The hemipenes make the tails of males longer and thicker than the tails of females of the same size. When looked at from the side, male tails are generally half as thick at the middle as at the base. Female tails are usually half as thick a quarter of the tail's length from the base. While learning, look at adult snakes of known sex before trying it on juveniles and adults of unknown sex. 3) Spurs. Male boa constrictors and pythons have spurs on either side of the vent that are longer than those of the females. In general, breeding snakes requires closely copying their natural conditions. This may include a seasonal day-night light cycle with a full spectrum light like Duro-test's Vita-lite, winter cooling, and other factors. Although captive breeding should be encouraged, it requires more dedication than simply keeping a few snakes. RECORDS: Records of origin, feeding, shedding, and breeding should be kept. These keep track of feeding schedules and enhance a collection's value. Federal and state permits often require some form of report. FURTHER READING: The following are among the most useful books. Conant, Roger. 1975. A field guide to reptiles and amphibians of eastern and central North America. Peterson Field Guide Series, No. 12. Houghton Mifflin Co., Boston. Second ed., 429 pp. de Vosjoli, Philippe. 1991. The general care and maintenance of Burmese pythons. Advanced Vivarium Systems, Lakeside, California. 44 pp. (This is one of a series of manuals from AVS covering the care of various reptiles and amphibians. All are excellent and inexpensive.) Kauffeld, Carl. 1969. Snakes: the keeper and the kept. Doubleday, Garden City, New York. 248 pp. Mattison, Chris. 1987. The care of reptiles and amphibians in captivity. Blandford Press, New York. Second ed., 317 pp. Newsgroups: rec.pets.herp Path: medicine.wustl.edu!wupost!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!ames!sgi!igor!donb From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) Subject: Water turtle care Message-ID: <1993Aug3.205949.23548@igor.tamri.com> Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA Date: Tue, 3 Aug 93 20:59:49 GMT Lines: 785 From haecky@osc.versant.com Thu Apr 15 15:23:28 1993 Received: from osc.VERSANT.COM by igor.tamri.com via SMTP (920330.SGI/911001.SGI) for donb id AA20064; Thu, 15 Apr 93 15:23:28 -0700 Received: by osc.versant.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13232; Thu, 15 Apr 93 15:30:36 PDT ~Date: Thu, 15 Apr 93 15:30:36 PDT ~From: Valerie Haecky Message-Id: <9304152230.AA13232@osc.versant.com> To: donb@tamri.com Status: RO Water Beginning Turtle Care Sheet ================================= Note: This beginners care sheet does not claim to be complete. If there is anything you would to see added, drop me a line. email: haecky@osc.versant.com phone: (415) 961-8950 (home) Note: This care sheet is put together from many sources: books, other care sheets, mine and other people's personal experiences. ===================================================================== Table of contents ----------------- Do you really want a turtle ? Before you get a turtle What kind of turtle do you want to get ? Water turtle species recommended for beginners Water turtle species Basic water turtle setup (indoors) Substrate in tank Water quality, waste management and filters Heaters Basic water turtle setup (outdoors) Food requirements Vitamins Light Temperature Hibernation Common health problems: causes and remedies If your turtle will not eat Activity levels Sexing Breeding Sources of information Baby turtles Prolapses (Intestines hanging out) ===================================================================== Do you really want a turtle ? ----------------------------- * Turtles are not Ninja Turtles. They will not perform tricks, talk, or perform heroic deeds. They don't eat pizza either. * Turtles live 40 and more years. Are you willing to take on a long term committment ? * Turtles grow throughout their life. Do you have space available ? * Do you have time to take propper care of your turtle ? It takes about 1 hour a week to thoroughly clean the enclosure, and about 10 minutes a day to feed and observe your animal. * Are you willing to afford a turtle ? Food will come you to about 10-20 dollars a month, depending on what you are feeding. An initial setup will cost you at least 50.-, but probably more. (For an indoor setup most of this money goes for the VitaLite - the rest can be improvised). Budget about 1 dollar a day for one animal. This budget includes food, housing, veterinary bills, and miscellaneous expenses. * Turtles are not cuddly. If treated properly, they can become very tame and very attached to their owners, clearly distinguishing him/her from other people. Your turtle may also find ways to make known his needs to you. But most turtles don't like very much to be handled and played with. * Even though most turtles are cheap to buy, when they get sick, they can cost as much as a cat or dog to heal. Are you willing to pay vet bills for the animal when it gets sick ? Are you willing to give the animal all the medical and personal care it needs, when it gets sick ? Turtles feel pain, too, and if you are not willing or able to spend the money on a *cheap* pet, don't get one!!! Before you get a turtle ----------------------- * Join or at least visit one of the herpetological societies in your area. * Read about your potential pet, talk to people who keep turtles, and get on rec.pets.herp or herpnet, if you have a computer. * Prepare a comfortable setup for your animal, buy some food, and decide where it is going to live. What kind of turtle do you want to get ? ----------------------------------------- * Water turtles are more work than land tortoises, but they are also more active. * Figure out, how big an animal you can accomodate. Turtles grow through their whole life. * Unless you breed, you may not care too much about the gender of your animal. Females tend to get larger and heavier, than males in many species. Water turtle species recommended for beginners ---------------------------------------------- * Red-eared slider The common green turtle with the red cheeks from the pet shop. Sliders are native to the United States and common in the South. Many captive bred animals are available, too. * Reeves turtle (Chinemys reevesi). This species is known in Southern China, southern Korea, and Japan. It is a small species and reaches maturity at around 5 inches. The carapace is is parallel-sided, moderately domed, with three strong keels. The carapace scutes are usually brown.The plastron is generally yellow with brown blothches which can cover almost the whole belly. The head often has yellow or olive stripes which can fade in older specimens.- Reeves turtle make very good pets. They become quite tame, are good eaters, and have a friendly disposition. Several can be kept together without problems. Reeves turtles are susceptible to shell disease. They must be kept in very clean water. When you buy an animal, thoroughly check it for rott. Many imported specimens have the problem. Reeves turtles are carnivores. They will eat worms and water snails, feeder goldfish, crickets, and other small critters. After a while, they will also take Reptomin(tm) turtle pellets. Because of the susceptibility to shell problems, it is imperative that a good basking place with plenty of UV light is provided. Water turtle species -------------------- * Mata-mata * Softshell turtle * Stinkpot * Painted Turtle * Spotted Tuertle * Snapping Turtle Basic water turtle setup (indoors) ---------------------------------- * A large heated aquarium with a swimming area at least as deep as the turtle is is wide (so he can flip back over if he fall upside down). Add a rock or shelf which allow the turtle to completely get out of the water. Add a heat lamp (most commoinly a shop lamp with a 40-60W light bulb) above the basking area, and a fluorescent light with a VitaLite(tm) bulb to replace sunlight. (Setting the tank under a window will not do, because that light is filtered). * Change the water at least once a week completely, and wash the tank out with a thin bleach solution a few times every year. Adding a strong aquarium filter will reduce the frequency of cleaning, but you should not put it off longer than two weeks. * Feeding the turtle in a container separate from the tank (and leaving them in there until they eliminate), greatly reduces waste accumulation in the tank. * Filters: A Fluval4(tm) submersible filter will keep a 20 gallong tank with 2 turtles clean for about 10 days. If you want more filter power, or your tank is larger, consider getting a power filter. Your local fish store will be able to help you. Get a filter 2-3 times as strong as for a fishtank of the same size. * Keeping the bottom of the tank bare will not only help cleaning, it will also prevent turtles from swallowing sand and rocks, which can lead to problems (see diseases). Substrate in tank ----------------- There is some controversy about this subject. Personally, I don't use any bottom substrate. It is most hygenic, and it prevents trouble. Rock ingestion: Fact 1: Some turtles do ingest rocks, from sand grain size to whatever will fit into their mouth. (I have seen one of my turtles eat rocks.) Fact 2: Some turtles get intestinal blockage because of it. Even sand can accumulate and eventually turn into a plug that needs to be surgically removed. Fact 3: Turtles that do not have the opportunity to ingest sand and rocks live happily. Question 1: No-one is sure, why turtles ingest the stuff. It does not seem essential to their digestion. They could even do it, because they are bored. Fact 4: Turtles with blockages are a lot of trouble (ever tried to give Castor Oil to a turtle ? or paid for surgery ?). Conclusion: In order to avoid trouble, use no substrate. If you are worried about the slipperiness of the glass bottom for turtles that "walk" on the bottom, you could try a piece of shower mat (the version with the suction cups). This works well, but debris tends to accumulate under the mat (and gets not washed through the filter, so you need more water changes). Water quality, waste management and filters ------------------------------------------- Water quality is the number one problem when keeping water turtles. Any solution is a compromise between what you can afford, what is reasonable, and what the turtle would ideally get. The ideal to strive for, is a lot of very clean water. * This is the A and O of keeping your turtles from getting skin an shell and other diseases. You want to change the water as often as possible. Imagine, you had to swim in and drink the water! * Adding one teaspoon of salt per gallon of water helps prevent shell rott and other shell and skin diseases. Sliders and Reeves turtles do well with that. For less common species, inquire first. * Tab water is fine. If you are concerned about chlorine, let the water sit for 24 hours, before using it. * People keep asking, *how often* to change the water. Well, it depends on the gallons of water per turtle, and whether you are using a filter. But once a week is the absolute minimum, unless your tank is huge and your filter system exeptional. * Not overfeeding will also keep the waste down. * Give your turtle as much space as you can possibly afford. In this case, larger is always better. Custom made glass tanks are affordable. (Negotiate price and features, when you talk to a sales rep. Often extra features like screen tops, which you don't need for turtles, will make things a lot more expensive. Note: I got mine from East Bay Vivarium in Berkeley for a very reasonable price. * Turtles produce two kinds of waste: visible and invisible. The visible solids can (and should) be removed with a net (available at aquarium stores - don't use the same net for your fish!), especially larger pieces, before they fall apart. Invisible waste, must be dealt with by frequent walter changes or filtration. * Disintegrating waste produces ammonia. Ammonia (the stuff that is in Ajax!) is bad for people, and it is bad for turtles. It makes them sick, and it can make their skin and shell rott. Every turtle tank will have ammonia in it. You cannot avoid it, but you can deal with it. Note, that letting feeder fish swim (and eliminate) in the turtle tank, raises ammonia level. Also, common dechlorinators also increase ammonia levels. * A filter that has settled in, i.e. has been running for 4-6 weeks will eventually harbor enough bacteria that like ammonia and the levels will go down. Unfortunately, most filters are dirty and beyond use, and therefore in need of replacement, before that equilibrum is ever reached. Filtering over carbon and other specialized filter media also helps. * I you are using a large cannister filter get one about 4 times as powerful as you would for an aquarium the same size, you might get lucky. You will still have to clean/rinse the media more often than for a fishtank. * Feeding your turtles outside the tank also reduces waste. Many turtles will eliminate shortly after eating. If you leave them in their feeding tub for a while after feeding, they will eliminate, and you get less waste in the tank. * Chlorinated water. People are divided on this issue. Personally, I have used local tab water for my turtles without problems. If you have differing experiences, let me know. * Adding a teaspoon of non-iodized salt per gallon of water will reduce the level of "bad" bacteria and protect the turtles better from shell and skin diseases. * The other way around ammonia etc. are frequent water changes. If you get a turtle, you will be doing lots of these. * A filter will not only reduce the frequency of water changes, it keeps the muck from floating around and being reingested by the animals. * So, what filter should you use ? 1) as powerful as possible 2) filter over mixed media (including carbon) 3) Filter media must not be accessible to turtles (they *will* eventually eat it). * Here is a non-exhaustive list of filters: (for more information, there is a FAQ available from rec.aquaria.(see below) 1) Fluval submersible filters come in 4 sizes. The largest size is big enough for about 35 gallons of water wit three turtles. Water changes every 7-10 days. Use the carbon cartridges. The Fluval 3 is ok for one turtle. Any smaller size, is too small. 2) Eheim or Fluval Cannister filters. Get the largest size you can afford. They are a lot cheaper over mail order, for example Mail Order Pet Shop. Filter over ceramic, carbon, and sponge and rinse frequently. 3) Several brands of Power Filters. They are good, and easy to clean, but often they require a water level that is higher than you have in your turtle tank. 4) Undergravel filters. Basically good, except that I don`t recommend gravel in the tank. Also, a grid to fit a turtle tank can be hard to find. Large gravel will not work with an UGF. Heaters ------- * You can either heat the tank from inside the water or outside the tank. * Heating pads. They are available at drug stores for about 15$ a piece. Put under the tank and adjust level. They don't usually have a thermostat, so check the water temperature daily, and turn the pad on or off, depending on the weather. * Heating Strips: a variation on pads. Usually not powerful enough for a turtle tank. * Basking lamp. If your apartment is always warm, and you have just one small turtle in a small tank, the basking lamp, usually a 60W bulb, can suffice to keep the water warm. * Submersible heaters. They are very efficient and come with a thermostat. But, the are made of glass and any turtle can break it. So, you need to protect the heater, for example behind some bricks. If the glass heater breaks, both you and your turtle can get electrocuted. Basic water turtle setup (outdoors) ---------------------------------- * To improvise: a children's wading pool in a yard or on a balcony makes a great home for a water turtle. Make sure it gets cleaned often enough, and has sun and shade throughout the day. Put some rocks or logs into the pool, so the animal can climb out and bask. This is a summer setup only. In winter, this pool is not deep enough. Make sure, the pool is high enough, so your turtle cannot escape. If you provide a land area outside the pool, fence it properly. If there are many cats and raccoons in the area, cover the pool, or your pet will get eaten. Insect screen is good. Sturdy wading pools can be purchased for about 25 dollars at large toy stores. * A pond of any size * Keeping the turtles outside at least in summer, mostly duplicates their natural environment. Food requirements ----------------- * DO NOT FEED HAMBURGER. It is much to fatty! * Water turtles need to be in the water to feed. If they find food on a land area, they will run to the closest water source, so they can swallow. * Water turtles are predominantly carnivores, but often like to get some fruit and greens. Experiment with a good mix of food items and find out, what your turtle likes best. Don't just feed one kind of food. In the wild, turtles eat a very varied diet. * It is difficult, to supply the right mix of food in captivity, so it is recommended that some extra vitamins are added to the food. (See vitamins). * Good food: earthworms, nightcrawlers (make sure they are not raised on manure), redworms, mealworms (not very nutritous), tubifex (not much nutritional value), whole feeder goldfish (very good), canned cat food (don't feed to often), snails, crickets, occasional lettuce (wash well) or spinach, melon and other fruit (find out what your turtle likes), very lean beef as an occasional treat. * As a nutritional staple, you can use trout chow (not all turtles like it), or Reptomin(tm) pellets. * Feed your turtle every 2-3 days. If it gets too skinny, feed more, if it gets fat, feed less. Most likely your turtle will end up on the fat side, because it will learn to beg on no-feed days, and you will give in. * All non-dry non-concentrated foods can be fed until the turtle is full. Full is, when the turtle slows down eating. Stuffed is, when the turtle cannot get any more food down, even if it tries. * Pellets absorb water and expand, also in the stomach of the turtle. Start out feeding about 10 pellets at the time and observe. Vitamins -------- * If you are feeding a perfect diet, no supplements are necessary. In captivity, we can not easily reach perfection, therefore vitamin supplies might be given at time. * Calcium Turtles need calcium to build healthy shells and bones. A cuttle fish bone in the tank will be nibbled on by most turtles and supplies extra calcium. Get a new bone, when the old one get slimy! * Vitamin D3 Synthesized in the turtle`s body using natural sunlight. A VitaLite(tm) is an acceptable substitute. * Vitamin A If lacking, will cause loss of appetite and swollen, runny eyes. A common symptom in store bought turtles, or turtles not fed properly. Can be fixed using a varied diet. In severe cases, an injection or drops may be recmmended by your vet. * Supplements There are CAlcium/D3 supplements available for reptiles now. They do not contain phosphor. Use these! Bird vitamins are also good. Light ----- * Turtles need several hours of exposure to natural sunlight every day. This helps them synthesize vitamin D3. If you keep your pet outdoors, and there is sun and shade available in the encosure, you don't have to worry. If your turtle is indoors all the time, you have to provide a source of UV light. Most commonly people use full spectrum lights like VitaLite(tm). The bulbs are fairly expensive (and should be changed at least once a year), but mandatory to keep your animal healthy. * There are all sorts of other brands of bulbs that claim to be full-spectrum. Most of them do not supply enough UV, or the wrong kind. Plant lights, like are not good enough. Black lights, on the other hand, produce too much UV for your turtle to be exposed to continuously. So do tanning lights. * Some of my turtles enjoy a walk outdoors every once in a while. Watch your turtle at all times, so he won't get hurt or lost.Turtles can get lost very quickly, if they want to. * Turtles need a basking light. The silvery shop lights from the hardware store are great. Place it on a screen top or hang if (high enough that the turtles cannot touch the bulb). I find that a 60W bulb is about the right strength. * The lights should be on between 10 and 14 hours a day, depending whether you use a yearly cycle, or not. Temperature ----------- * Check the literature. Lower 80is is a good general range. The warmer the water the more active the turtles, but also the more bacteria in the water. I keep the temperature at the lower limit in winter. In summer (in CA) the water will naturally get warmer. This also gives a little of a yearly cycle, even if you don't want to hibernate the animals. * Be sure the temperature is not too low, because it will put the turtle into a state, where it is too warm for hibernation and too cold to eat and move, and it will die. Hibernation ----------- * If you keep your turtles indoors and are not breeding, you fo not need to hibernate them. * If your turtles live outside in the summer, you can take them in in in winter and need not hibernate them, unless you want to breed. * Sliders can be kept outdoors all year in the southern states and will hibernate on their own. * I do not hibernate my turtles, so, for details, check the literature. Common health problems: causes and remedies ------------------------------------------- * Since this is a sheet for beginners, I do not want to go into fancy treatments and self-medication. They should be left to people with some experience. * If your animal gets sick and either gets worse fast, or does not get better after you made the environment perfect, ***SEE A VET***. * In general, see a good veterinarian that knows about reptiles. Some are in the yellow pages, or ask your local animal hospital or Humane Society for a reference to a herp vet. Your local herp society may also be able to help. * If your turtle gets sick, make sure, you are keeping it in clean water, feed it the right foods, and keep it warm enough. These are the primary reasons for turtles getting sick. Fix the environment, or the turtle will not get better, even with expensive medication. * The most common symptom is a turtle not eating. See next section. * Swollen eyes Can be caused by lack of vitamin A (check diet) or can be the beginning of any kind of an infection. Do not just use eye drops. They ease the symptoms, and the turtle will be happier, but you need to treat the cause. * Wounds in the skin and small rashes. You can treat these by disinfecting them with Betadine or Nolvosan solution (dilute with same amount of water) and keeping the turtle warm and dry. (Soak it twice daily for 1/2 hour in warm water, seperate from other turtles, and disinfect after each bath). If the condition does not improve, see a vet. * Shell sores, hole in shell, bloody sores on shell. Immediately dry dock the turtle and start sponging of with Nolvosan several times a day, especially after the soak. SEE A VET immediately. This condition is always caused or aggravated by dirty water!!!!! Shell diseases need much tender loving care to heal, and it takes months or years to clean it up. Prevent it, by feeding a proper diet and cleaning the water. * Sneezing and gaping (occasionally) Like humans, reptiles occasionally sneeze or yawn. Turtles can get water in their nose and need to sneeze it out. If the sneezing happens only every once in a while, and if their is no mucus discharge, there is nothing to worry about. * Sneezing (often), caughing, gaping Almost always a sign of respiratory infection, often pneumonia. This needs the immediate attention of a skilled herp veterinarian. The turtle will need antibiotics, X-rays, and a lot of care. Better prevent by keeping your turtle warm enough and fed properly. If your Turtle will not eat --------------------------- * Is the turtle kept warm enough ? If turtles get too cool, they will stop eating. * Does the turtle like the food you offer ? Try out different foods. Some turtles can be very finecky eaters, especially in the beginning. And they have definite likes and dislikes. I find, that most turtles will eventually take small earthworms that are wiggling in front of their nose. * Is your turtle exposed to too muc stress ? This is often a cause in new animals.Stress can be caused by handling, travelling, tank mates. * I your turtle healthy ? Not eating can be a symptom of other problems like respiratory infection, pneumonia, constipation. * Don't panic! A turtle can go without food for weeks, even months, and when it feels well again, it will eat again. See a vet, if you thing you are doing everything right, and the animal does not eat for more than 2 weeks. Activity Levels --------------- Water turtles come at various levels of activity. Their activity depends on how they obtain food. * Red-eared sliders move around a lot. * Reeves turtles are fairly active. They are my most active turtles when it comes to begging for food. * Softshell turtles spend a good deal of time buried in the sand, but when they decide to swim, they do a lot of it. * Mata-matas sit mostly at the bottom of the tank and wait for food to come buy. * Snapping turtles mostly sit at the bottom and wait for food to be attracted by their dangling tongue. Sexing ------ These are not clean-cut rules, and not all work for all turtles, but using a combination of them, will usually help you determine the gender of your turtle. * Males often have fatter, bigger tails than females. * Males have the vent (cloaca) about 2/3 from the shell towards the tip of the tail. Females have it closer to the shell. * Males have a flat or concave plastron (bottom shell) - so it will fit better on top of the female. Females have a flat or convex plastron - so there is more body spave for eggs. * Male sliders grow long claws on their front legs. Breeding -------- * This is an advanced feature and not covered here (yet). Sources of information ---------------------- Encyclopedia of Turtles. Pritchard. Price varies from $40 to $80. The comprehensive listing and description of turtle and tortoise species. [vmh] The General Care and Maintenance of Box Turtles, Including a Section on Cinese and Malaysan Box Turtles. Advancved Vivarium Systems, around $8. Comprehensive and up to date. All you need to get started [vmh]. The General Care and Maintenance of Red-eared Sliders and Other Popular Freshwater Turtles. P. deVosjoli, 1992, Advancved Vivarium Systems, around $8. Comprehensive and up to date. All you need to get started [vmh]. Turtles. R.J. Church, 1963, TFH, ISBN 0-87666-226-2, around $10, a good introduction. In spite of its age a very useful book. Not enough by itself, though [vmh]. Turtles. M.F. Roberts, 1988, TFH, around $10. Interesting introduction, but not enough by itself [vmh]. Turtles. H. Wilke, 1979, Barron's, ISBN 0-8120-2631-4, priced around $12. Well structured introductory book with list of popular species and their requirements. A good book, but you'll want to know more [vmh]. Turtles and Tortoises of the World. David Alderton, ISBN: 0-8160-1733-6, $22.95. This book discusses everything there is to know about turtles and tortoises. It discusses anatomy, reproduction, behavior, EVERYTHING!!! And it's written in such a way that you don't need to be a scientist to understand everything. Along with very nice pictures... this is the best book in my herp library. Turtles, Tortoises, and Terrapins. F.J. Obst, 1988, ISBN 0-312-82362-2, priced around $20. A wonderful book which covers the life of turtles. Emphasis on conservation issues; wonderful photographs and excellent drawings; small section on husbandry. More than worth the money. This book appeared originally in Germany. Recommended [vmh]. Reptile & Amphibian. Bi-monthly, $12 per year. RD3, Box 3709-A, Pottsville, PA 17901. The magazine is quite new and still working on its image. The articles are well written and range from general narration to scientific papers. It covers a wide range of reptiles and amphibians. A great source, if you want to expand your general knowledge. Back issues are available [vmh]. The Tropical Fish Hobbyist. Primarily a magazine about tropical fish, but recently started a reptile section which is steadily growing. I would only recommend to buy or subscribe, if you are also interested in fish [vmh]. The Vivarium. TEAM: Turtle and Tortoise Education and Adoption Media. Monthly, $10 per year. 3245 Military Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90034. Emphasis on tortoises and tortoise conservation efforts in this country. With your subscription you not only get an interesting newsletter, but also support the case for the tortoise. If you have turtles, you should be getting it. Articles range from general to very technical [vmh]. There is a newsgroup rec.aquaria on netnews. There is also an extensive *.aquaria FAQ available. It discusses, for example: filters, water quality, mail order sources, nitrogen cycle ... The FAQ is available by anonymous ftp from jerico.usc.edu. MISC ==== Baby turtles ------------ Very young (small) turtles are no longer sold in the U.S.A. not only because they carry diseases that can infect humans, but also because wild populations were being depleted to supply the pet trade. Also, baby turtles need extra care to remain healthy. Most people are neither willing nor able to give them this extra attention, and the unfortunate result is that the turtles die before they even turn one year old (water turtles can live to be about 60 years old). Prolapses (Intestinal and others) --------------------------------- A lot of turtles will at some point in time prolapse, i.e. turn inside out and outside of their body) their intestine or for males their penisses (ovaries are possible, too, for females). Occasional prolapses are common and more annoying than dangerous if dealt with properly. To the best of my knowledge, there is little pain involved for the turtle (but we know little about pain in reptiles). It not known for sure, what causes prolapses. Diet, stress, parasites and intestinal infections, general disease, obstructed intestinal tract, weak cloacal muscles have all been suggested, but there are no final conclusions. So, there are no kown preventive measures, either. If your turtle seems otherwise healthy, an occasional prolapse is nothing to worry about. If the prolapses happen frequently and cause too much distress to you and your turtle, you might consider asking a herp vet to apply a purse string suture. If you catch your turtle in the act, watch and keep dirt away form the exposed parts. If they don't go back in immediately, make sure, they stay moist (water - you may even want to put the animal in a pan with a little luke warm water) and massage the surrounding area gently and make the turtle move. For water turtles, keeping the parts moist is less of an issue than for land turtles, but putting the turtle into clean water is still recommended. With water turtles, other turtles might try to bite the prolapsed body part which can lead to heavy bleeding and ugly consequences. Land turtles may step on their intestine, or tear it with their hind feet when trying to remove the 'thing' extending from their body. The turtle is not aware, that this is a body part. Observe the turtle, until the prolapse has gone back inside. Purse String Suture: The suture basically keeps the cloaca from opening too wide, and so the intestine should stay in. The turtle can still pass feces, of course. If the intestine does dry off, usually, the vet will put a suture around it and eventually remove the dead part completely. This is done under anesthesia and can be more or less complicated, depending on the size of the dead parts. This operation has a guarded prognosis. ===================================================================== --------------------------------------------------------------- __ _______ /*_>-< Valerie Haecky _ ^---^ ___/ _____ \__/ / haecky@osc.versant.com <_|-----)> <____/ \____/ v---v ---------------------------------------------------------------